The P44 and LSP44 Story with Jett McCandless

Joe Lynch: [00:00:00] Hello, friends. Welcome to the Logistics of Logistics. My name is Joe Lynch. Thank you so much for joining us today. Today’s topic is the P44 and LSP44 story with my friend Je- Jet McCandless. How’s it going, Jet?

Jett McCandless: I’m doing well. How you doing, Joe?

Joe Lynch: Good. Boy, this is a long time coming. I was supposed to interview you a few years ago, but I’m glad we waited because you guys have some really big news. So Jet, please introduce yourself [00:00:30] and your company and where you’re calling from today

Jett McCandless: Absolutely. Thanks. I-I’m glad to, Joe. It’s much more exciting where we are today, both the, the macro financial markets, also the, the company and the industry. My name is Jeff McAllys. I’m the CEO and founder of project 4 and LSP44. And project44 connects, executes, provides visibility and automation in the key transportation supply chain processes.

It helps our customers accelerate [00:01:00] insights and shorten the time it takes them to turn those into insights. And then LSP44 is a newer brand that we created, and that’s an AI native agent and API infrastructure business for the logistics service providers. Let’s define logistics service providers as 3PL, freight forwarders, and brokers.

Joe Lynch: Nice

Jett McCandless: both businesses are b-based there in Chicago

Joe Lynch: Very nice. So where are you calling from today?

Jett McCandless: Today I’m calling from Phoenix, Arizona

Joe Lynch: Very [00:01:30] nice. Very nice. Although Chicago is very nice. I just drove through Chicago the other day. It is gorgeous this time of year, as you well know. Everyone knows project44. That’s been around for a while. I was t- I was joking with you, but it’s not all joke, that I, for a long time I was like, “I know Jet, but I don’t know what project44 is.” Uh, we’ll get into a little more detail about that in a minute. But project44’s been around for a while. What was, what year did you found it?

Jett McCandless: 2014

Joe Lynch: And so that’s kind of one of the original [00:02:00] visibility tools. And now y- now you split that off. Is that for who? Is that for enterprise shippers?

Jett McCandless: Yeah. Yes. The really the ice– the ideal customer profile or ICP for project44 is the Global 2000 shippers. So basically, any brand that comes to mind is likely a customer of ours or certainly a target customer. If you think beverage or life sciences, auto, e-commerce, retail, many of the largest brands in the world are customers.

[00:02:30] And those companies use us for visibility, as you correctly pointed out, but they also use us for a lot more than that. Spec– execution and automation, and more and more they’re using us for agents and AI. And what they’re looking for is they want the project44 platform, which we call Movement, to be interoperable with the other systems that they’re using to run their business.

Could be their ERP, their WMS, maybe they have a TMS. We also have a [00:03:00] TMS, but ours is our system is interoperable with other TMSs. And oftentimes they’re using our platform, they’re connecting to the user inter– the user interface, and humans are looking at it, or they have agents or another system connecting into the APIs to pull data into other systems or to take data from other systems and push it into ours

Joe Lynch: Yep. Jed, I think maybe a year or so ago, maybe longer, maybe shorter, but Craig Fuller had written an article, and I think it was from a [00:03:30] conversation with you guys that some changes you made to projec 44. And I think the gist of it when I read it was visibility became kinda table stakes, and you guys were one of the reasons it became table stakes.

But then you s- guys started realizing we can do so much more than just visibility. And, um, I joke about this. I used to say, when I was at 3PL, we did mostly less-than-truckload shipping. I would say we have real-time visibility. This is [00:04:00] 2009, two thou- And what that meant was EDI. Hey, we get these EDI updates every, I don’t know, two hours or whatever it was. I can give you up to the minute, give or take two or three hours. But we never said it that way. We said real-time visibility. I think you guys started bringing us real-time visibility, and it quickly became table stakes. And then am I right to say you guys started saying, “Wow, this is just scratching the surface of what we can do”?

Jett McCandless: Yeah, I think that’s [00:04:30] most-mostly accurate. I think w- maybe one thing that we could probably define visibility, and I would say the EDI that you had was, I experienced that all the way back from 1999, and I didn’t feel that was very real time. It

Joe Lynch: No, but we called it

Jett McCandless: yeah. Yeah, it was a big challenge and headache to set up, and it was a big challenge for actual day-to-day e-execution.

I didn’t start the company to be a visibility company. I started it to be the connective tissue between [00:05:00] the folks that move goods and the folks that transport the goods. So typically, think of it as like a shipper broker on one side or LSP on one side, and on the other side, you’d have a carrier.

It could be any mode of transportation. And if you think about a logistics workflow all the way from the rate quote to the invoice, some of it could be done through EDI, some of it’s flat file, some of it’s phone call and email. In my opinion, back in 2014, I thought that this could be done much better using APIs.

And when you look at [00:05:30] adjacent industries like finance, communication, payments travel, these industries had already adopted these APIs. So that was the first thing to set out. Now, the first product we built was for LTL, which had complete automation of the APIs across the rate quote, the tender, the tracking, and the documents But as you correctly pointed out, a lot of people don’t know that about our history.

And when we really went out to market and tried to [00:06:00] sell to the Global 2000 shippers, they weren’t so interested in their LTL problem they had. They really wanted to know how can they have visibility. And they would define visibility as real time or near, near real time tracking, plus an accurate ETA.

They very seldomly care where the product is. They just wanna know is it gonna arrive ahead or behind or on time. And our platform was really well positioned for that because it started with API, high quality, synchronized d-data [00:06:30] back and forth. We were able to become the heavyweight champs in visibility.

And I guess at this point, we’ve defined visibility as transportation visibility, or as Art Mescher likes to say, little V visibility. That grew into big V visibility or what folks say is inventory in motion, where you can connect all the different modes and all the different geographies together, and you can look at a PO or by a SKU, and you [00:07:00] can actually see where that product is.

And you can imagine during COVID all of us have personal stories of products we were waiting for at our house that was had elongated lead times. And of course, if you’re in the industry you lived it firsthand. And that product grew incredibly fast and, one of the fastest growing software companies in the world.

And as we really dominated the visibility space and we really got the product market fit with [00:07:30] that it allowed us to start to get into some, some of the init- to revisit some of the initial thesises of the business, which is it’s more than visibility. You need to go from that passive visibility into the ability to execute and automate

Joe Lynch: Yep. I love it. I love it. I wanna- we’ll get back to Visibility in a minute, but first tell us a little bit about you. Where’d you grow up? Where’d you go to school? Some career highlights before you started these juggernaut companies. And by the way, I asked you this the other month ago when we talked, [00:08:00] is Jet your real name? So tell us that story.

Jett McCandless: Sure. Yes, my– Jett is my real name. I don’t think I was Jett in the yearbook. High school yearbook many times it was usually Jeff ’cause it was a very unusual name back then. And I started back in the industry really back in 1999, working at Portland, Oregon, a place called Swan Island in an LTL carrier that’s gone out of business called Roadway Express.

And the job was answering the phones, [00:08:30] recording shipments, data entry. It was an awesome job, in my opinion, because it paid $12.50 an hour. And I think my shift started about noon. It was a swing shift, so I could go to, to college in the morning do this dispatch job, and then still had time to go out and, out to the things that young, y- young folks do.

And then I got a little tired of Portland and wanted to go find some sun, so I moved down to Phoenix. And there I was lucky enough to get a job at Yellow, inbound [00:09:00] dock, outbound dock, line haul dispatcher. Eventually, I moved into local sales and national sales, and I managed Walmart globally for what became YRC, which was about a billion-dollar account.

I was 27 years old then, and that was a– I felt like I was, I had accomplished a lot. It was the largest account for the largest LTL carrier, probably the largest carrier in, in freight. And then left and did a startup called Global Trans. And Global Trans was a, a heck of a [00:09:30] ride. We grew really fast.

We were always undercapitalized, and we signed on a lot of customers, and that eventually got to two billion in, in, in revenue. And then I started a consulting firm called Carrier Direct, where I consulted for all the third-party logistics companies and LSPs that you can think of. And all that combination is what really is what planted the seed for project44 and LSP44.

Joe Lynch: So what hole did you see in the market? So [00:10:00] you’re at Carrier Direct. I know you had a lot of success prior to that. I, by the way, I remember talking to you before you started Carrier Direct, and you had all sorts of different projects going on. And by the way, I should also mention, when you work at some of these really great companies, I think people think of entrepreneurs like you and go yeah, he’s just, he’s homegrown.” You worked at some of these really great companies, which I’m sure had an impact. Working with Walmart, working with Yello, working with Global Trans, these are all sensational companies. That is [00:10:30] quite the education. But getting back to it, when you were working at Carrier Direct, which I think became Metafora, what holes did you see in the market that you said, “I gotta do something.

There’s an opportunity here”?

Jett McCandless: Yes. So my first job in 1999, I remember I looked in Roadway in Portland. I looked over at my boss and in Portland we had Nike and Bowflex and Columbia Sportswear as customers at Roadway. And when I’d look over him and I’d say I don’t understand, like, [00:11:00] why are they calling me asking for ETAs of trucks or price quotes?”

I could say, “We have a computer, they have a computer. Why can’t this all be there?” And he says, “Shut up, kid. Keep answering the phone and tell when the truck’s gonna be there in 15 minutes.”

Joe Lynch: No matter what.

Jett McCandless: Yeah. Yeah. Regardless of any, anything at all. And then but that was, like, an interesting thing of these machines should be communicating more effectively with one another.

And it cl- and I had the same problem when we managed Walmart at YRC. I remember I went to the EDI team and [00:11:30] told them it was broken, and they did like a two-month study and came back and said it works perfectly fine. And I said if this works– if this is what you think works perfectly fine, it’s a disaster operationally behind, behind the scenes.”

And at Global Trans, we grew really quickly but it was a bit of a mechanical turk. It had a lot of people behind the scenes creating this illusion of software. Yeah, it had a great UX and you could get a lot of au-automated things, but it wasn’t as, It required a lot more people than, say, other industries [00:12:00] like Travelocity or something like that.

And then I just thought maybe we couldn’t figure it out and surely there were really impressive companies like Coyote or CH Robinson or Echo or DSV that had this figured out. And when I started Carriage Direct, most companies, most LSPs wanted to know how we did it at Global Trans. And so I was able to go in and explain to them ways they could improve their operations, usually get into the LTL brokerage game.

And what I realized through that journey and [00:12:30] consulting for dozens and dozens of these LSPs is that all of them had a broken communication layer, a lack of connective tissue. And that’s when I started thinking there must be a better way. And I just went on the journey and the search to find out how these other industries were sending information back and forth.

Joe Lynch: Yeah that’s interesting. And I remember somebody said to me, and I had to look it up right after that. So when the ELD mandate hit, I don’t remember what year that was, 2017, ’18, whenever it [00:13:00] was you guys had, by that time, you were already in… You already had project44 code inside of those ELDs. I’m probably saying it the wrong way. But I remember at the time somebody said, “Hey, can you can you do some training and help these trucking companies understand that the EL- E- ELD mandate’s coming?” I was like, “Yeah, I’ll do that training.” And then I had to look it up to see what the hell is an ELD. But so people were using electronic logging devices prior to the mandate. And [00:13:30] there’s not just one ELD or 10, there’s probably at that time over 50, I’m guessing maybe more. And you guys, you started off putting code inside these ELDs so you can tell me where that truck is at?

Jett McCandless: Yeah, I think it’s important to think about each geography. We are a global brand, so we operate in over 190 countries and territories every, every day. And the ELD mandate you’re talking about is specifically to US it was from the Obama administration. [00:14:00] Other countries had similar devices before and some adopted it after- afterwards.

But essentially, and they call it different things, but essentially what you have is a telematics that’s inside the truck. It’s recording information. Perhaps it’s the performance of the truck and the location. Maybe also when you drive there’s a errors in the engine or what you’re talking about is when you’ll be able to start to record these electronic hours that the driver was logging.

And yes, there was about 50 early [00:14:30] on, and because we were in the business of connecting the APIs, it was very easy for us to connect into these ELDs or telematics. And they had an API connection, and so that’s– was a big accelerator for us. Prior to that, a lot of the tracking or visibility for truckload was happening through cell phone triangulation, which had its own challenges, but it was low friction for all parties.

When we look at in 2017, 2018, though, what I think is fascinating is that Europe already had over 600 telematics providers.

Joe Lynch: [00:15:00] God.

Jett McCandless: So this became a much more difficult challenge. Anyone that’s in technology knows that back then, connecting to 600 different disparate systems without any standards is quite painful which is why we acquired a number one player in Europe.

But now, if we fast-forward to today, there’s about 1,500 telematics providers globally. So a rather large N

Joe Lynch: Yeah it’s interesting. A few years ago, I talked to Jack Kennedy on the podcast from Platform Science, [00:15:30] and somebody had given me the title and it said Telematics. And I said, “Are you happy with this tire title?” And he goes, “What’s telematics?” I go, “You tell me what telematics is.” And I go, “Do you wanna call it ELD?”

He goes, “That’s one function.” So I c- I started saying it’s the tablet inside the truck that is the tech stack. ‘Cause it might be proof of delivery, it might be visibility tools like yours. Y- again, you guys have gone beyond visibility at this point. But it was [00:16:00] interesting because I don’t think there was a universal thought I heard telematics, I heard ELD, I call it the tech stack for drivers.

But it’s critically important to the way they do business now. And obviously the tech stack, I don’t want them having to enter a whole bunch of information into it, so it has to pull from a whole bunch of systems, which gets back to what you said about earlier, connectivity. Visibility is important, but connectivity is where it begins for you guys

Jett McCandless: That’s right. [00:16:30] You’re exactly right

Joe Lynch: S- so you started the, you started project44, and wh- who are your original customers, and what was your original vision for this?

‘Cause I know it’s evolved

Jett McCandless: Yes, it ha-ha-has evolved and it’s– in some ways it’s become gone, gone full circle. I think if you look at the innovation bell curve, and you have the early adopters you have the late adopters, and you have the laggards. And prior to that, on the other side of the chasm, you have kind of the tinkerers and the people that are the [00:17:00] real innovators.

And what’s interesting, if you think about there are basically two types, two cohorts of companies out there that hire Carriers to do work. You have what the industry calls a shipper, and these are oftentimes manufacturers, distributors, retailers, and e-commerce companies. And then you have what we call logistics service providers, brokers, 3PLs, freight forwarders, third-party warehouses et cetera.[00:17:30]

And those definitions change a little bit from geography to geography. There’s different regulations and things, but hopefully you see this general concept. When you think about who the real innovators were on the innovation bell curve, because pretty much all innovation follows that, the bell curve, it certainly was the logistics service providers.

They knew that if they could get information back and forth between their system and the carriers faster that was more complete, that there would be an arbitrage that they [00:18:00] would have, and they could have lower cost and a better service than their competitors. And I think if we looked at the first 100 customers of project44, somewhere in the 80 to 85 were logistics service providers

Joe Lynch: J- Jed, I gotta tell you I’ve joked about this on my podcast in the past. 50 people in a row, I’m not lying, 50 companies in a row said, “I would like to come on and talk about visibility.” I was like, “Yeah, I get it. You have visibility. project44 [00:18:30] gives you…” Yeah, and I love it, but we have to talk about other things.

You have to do other stuff besides bring this visibility. But it was such a game changer because it was, for the first time, getting s- the real time that many of us sold 10 years earlier wh- when it wasn’t really real time. And and maybe I’m jumping ahead here, but as soon as we got used to the idea that you can do it domestically, you guys were suddenly doing it over the [00:19:00] ocean, and then across the world. And, uh, I forgot the name of the company, one of your acquisitions, I interviewed the guy, uh, right after we published it. He sold his company to you guys, and I thought, “Okay, so I wish I’d known that ahead of time.” That was over the ocean visibility, and he says this is now possible. It was clear metal.

Jett McCandless: Fair metal.

Joe Lynch: Yeah, and, and so you guys, as soon as we started saying, “Oh yeah, this is a domestic thing.” And by the way, a lot of the [00:19:30] domestic over-the-road companies, super important, they think of themselves as the supply chain. The supply chain starts 16 weeks earlier, probably somewhere in Asia or Mexico. And so visibility across the ocean matters quite a bit.

I can tell you as an automotive guy- I used to res- ship stuff to China or Thailand, and I’d receive stuff from those places, and you had no visibility. They said, “Yeah, the boat’s supposed to leave on this day, and it’ll be at the port at some point, and then you’ll [00:20:00] get a phone call when it’s clears.” That’s it. And it, the… I always remember my shipping guy would say, “Don’t come back until next week.” And n-not, “I’ll give you a link and you can track it.” “Nope, don’t come back till next week. Stop bugging me.” You guys changed that

Jett McCandless: Yeah, you brought up some good points. So if we fill in a timeline, in 2018, you have this big push for domestic visibility. At the same time, Europe [00:20:30] is seeing value in the ground visibility also. Maybe that’s the be- the better way to classify this, is ground visibility on these two very large markets.

And over that time period from 2018 to kind of 2021, is that we had essentially acquired all of the LSP customers, and it was a great group of folks and, But one of the challenges [00:21:00] was The m- the innovation that they wanted for the next step function change was dependent on carrier innovation. And carriers at that time really didn’t have the capability to create the next step function change.

You have to remember that our platform has to connect to other carriers, and so there has to be something to connect, at least back then. It’s different now with agents. And so we started selling more and more to shippers in that 2018, 2019, 2020, and it became very [00:21:30] clear, to your point, that they cared a lot more about ocean visibility than they did about ground visibility.

And that got really highlighted when with COVID.

And C- but COVID went a little crazy. So we had developed a, an ocean visibility product internally. It was in a distant third place if we were being objective about it. And the number one ocean visibility company was Ocean Insights based out of Hamburg, Germany.

And [00:22:00] they built it like you’d think the Germans would build it. If they said the button would do this, the button did that. And they had a decent go-to-market team, but they were the heavyweight champs from data quality and product. And then ClearMetal, the company you were mentioning, was out of San Francisco, and they were in second place.

And they were mostly young, very aggressive folks, AI and machine learning backgrounds from Stanford, graduate degrees, a very sharp group. But they were really more of an AI ML company that was just [00:22:30] had come into this ocean visibility. So we just looked at the board and the playing board that is, and I said, “Let’s acquire Ocean Insights and ClearMetal.

We’ll take away the number one and number two competitor, and then we know we’re in third place, a distant third, so that’ll leave n- no other options for competitors to acquire. We’ll clear the board, and we’ll pick up the two best products.” And back then I was thinking that I think this ML AI thing is gonna be pretty big, so let’s get as much talent as we [00:23:00] can in, in here working on those, those projects.

Which, seems obvious now as we sit five years later. But it was a tough conversation with the board to try to get them to approve. I think total was about $175 million of acquisitions there

Joe Lynch: Yeah. Jet, I’m I’m also just thinking as you mentioned acquiring two big companies that are, um, not in Chicago where you guys are based global. You suddenly, and you did it well because the company is a juggernaut, but you had to grow from, “Hey, I got a local [00:23:30] team here,” to managing domestic, which was big.

That’s a big company all by itself, and then suddenly I’m a global company and I’ve got global brands depending on me. Uh, you had to grow up in terms of… And the wrong way, maybe the wrong way. Grow up your management skills ’cause all of a sudden you’ve got a global workforce and all that entails, which is mind-boggling.

‘Cause a, a lot of times you see a global company, somebody might have grown up in it and saw how their boss did it. You created a [00:24:00] global company, uh, and you were the… You’re generation one on it. You’re ground floor

Jett McCandless: Yeah it’s an intuitive question. project44 is unique because we are global. And it’s global in a couple different layers, which makes it a much more complicated business than most of the businesses out there. So it’s global in the carrier network. As I mentioned, over 190 countries and territories ev-every day.

And then it also has global customers. So there are a number of [00:24:30] other competitors out there, but it’s very rarely that we lose big global deals of the Global 2000 because we’re the only one that has the global network on the carrier side. And so you have, if you think about the largest brands in the world auto, we have all the Japanese, Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Subaru.

We have the Europeans, the Volkswagens and Audis, and we have the American brands too, like Ford and, more brands in there. But life sciences, the Lillys [00:25:00] and Cardinals and everyone that’s there, and then you even have the Amazons and Home Depot. And so these are global supply chains that are in this period of hyper disruption from COVID, while we’re trying to pull together this to your point, kind of this domestic Chicago-based company.

And that third layer is the people. And so you have cultures from all around the world moving in various capacities. So I can remember I made some comments about the [00:25:30] Ukraine-Russian war when that first happened. My wife’s Ukrainian, and it was really off-putting to some of our employees that we had picked up through some acquisitions in East Germany.

And I hadn’t really realized the consequences at that point, because to your point, I hadn’t been exposed to so many different cultures. And, we had team members, I think ba- at that point, about 40 different countries on five different continents. And so you have to really realize that, you’re no longer a, a dispatcher in Portland, Oregon, [00:26:00] or Phoenix, Arizona, moving LTL shipments.

Joe Lynch: Yep. All the smart aleck remarks gotta stop if you’re making them right

Jett McCandless: I don’t know they were spart- I they were more maybe, I wasn’t a fan of the conflict. And it w- it was different to ex- experience that and I think it’s a, it is a moat within itself. We have a data moat. All that data that goes through is over $5 trillion of global GDP that goes through the platform.

We have this data data moat, but then you also have this, this [00:26:30] network moat, and then you have a people moat. To put all these pieces together global is unusual. I think to get– If you were to look at the next size up logistics tech company that’s as global as we are, you probably have to go all the way to Descartes, which is about a 750 million ARR business.

So there’s a big space, say, between Descartes and if you remove project44 and then say the next company [00:27:00] down, you get into, a lot of subscale businesses that are 25, 50, or, $100 million ARR businesses, which those are remarkable and people should be proud of what they’ve built, but there’s a lot of air between there.

And project44 is in this, in that gap in between, which is in a, a unique position

Joe Lynch: Yeah. By the way I was looking through some business website not so long ago, probably a year ago, and it was talking about, fast-growing tech and blah, blah, blah and I saw project44. And [00:27:30] what was interesting about that when I saw it was, oh, this is not a list of logistics companies. This is not a list of the fast-growing. This is a list of tech companies, right? And it… And I’m not just saying this to be nice. You guys transcended out of a logistics category into a business category, and you’re a global brand. Nobody says, “Hey Nissan’s a really good,” they say they’re a really good automotive company, but they’re a global brand first, right? Um, [00:28:00] yeah. Congratulations on that. So I wanna talk, but I wanna talk more about this, the pandemic and the time right after that, ’cause I know you guys grew a lot during that. So what did you learn from the pandemic? What, what trials and tribulations you guys go through, and then what changes have happened post-pandemic?

And God it’s fading into the re- rearview mirror. It feels like it’s still fresh in everyone’s mind, though.

Jett McCandless: Yeah we wouldn’t have enough time to talk about everything we learned during the pandemic or that kind of hyper-growth [00:28:30] phase that the company experienced. Would have to have like a, a series

Of podcasts of of learnings throughout that. So I think at the high level though, the kind of executive bullet points would be stay humble with everything that’s happening around and make sure that you have the absolute best people on the team, and that’s in the boardroom, that’s on your executive team, and it’s all the way all the physicians at all the different capacities across the company.

And if you do that and you [00:29:00] stay hyper-focused on delivering value to customers everything else just becomes noise and you can navigate anything that’s out there. Very challenging times for us, very exciting times for us to become a unicorn company

Joe Lynch: Many times over.

Jett McCandless: Yeah. Ex-ex-exciting, but a, a lot to learn and unpack from that

Joe Lynch: Yeah Jim Tompkins, industry legend, was on my podcast, I think maybe during COVID, and he used the term VUCA, [00:29:30] uh, volatility, uncertainty, complexity, ambiguity. And I was like, “Yeah, we have VUCA all the time.” By the way, military uses it. I was listening to a, some Navy SEAL book, and he used the term VUCA. And when you talk about certain w- wars, let’s just say the Middle East, yeah, you have volatility for sure. Uncertainty, all the time. Complexity, yeah. There’s like you pull that lever not knowing what, what else might happen. And then ambiguity. And when Jim [00:30:00] said that to me prior to his hitting the record button, I was like, “Man, we live in VUCA.” Even in the best of times, we live in VUCA. And boy, people love to say on my podcast, “You gotta build resiliency into it.” And I’m not disagreeing. I tend to go the other way, which is the, kind of the negative is, we found out during COVID we had a little bit of brittleness, and now we said, “We can’t have brittle. We need flexible. We need our supply chains to kinda move in a way that [00:30:30] allows us to support our customers.”

And I think the first thing I want is I want better data. I want visibility. I want all the stuff that you guys give me, and I don’t get that without the connectivity that you brought up at the top of the hour

Jett McCandless: You’re exactly right. I think if you were going to look at the maturity of a business in a company, and you were going to look at their– evaluate their logistics and transport maturity, and you can only measure one thing, the [00:31:00] one thing that you would measure wouldn’t be rate quotes or on-time shipping or OTIF.

It’d really be what’s the connectivity quality. And if you have really great connectivity quality, you can accomplish pretty much all of your other supply chain goals, not just logistics goals. And if you don’t have great connectivity, it’s nearly impossible to conne- to accomplish the majority of the goals that that maybe are [00:31:30] coming from the board or that the, the company has.

Joe Lynch: Yep. I wanna talk a little bit just about data. So obviously we want data. Ev- a- any ops guy wants data. E- every financial person, they want data. And one of the things, you probably ran into this also along the way was helping a large shipper just before COVID select a 3PL. And I remember e- every company would say, “Our TMS will automatically do this,” or, “Our TMS automatically do- does that.” And I said, “I’m sure the TMS does, [00:32:00] but the problem is it doesn’t have good data, and that’s ’cause you let humans into the loop, and the humans are putting in records that are incomplete, they’re inaccurate, they’re missing whatever.” And so at the end of the week where I get, “Hey, that automatic report.” I said, “I used to have my guys download the Excel, clean it up, put it in PowerPoint, and then we’ll present it.” And they’re like, “Oh no, we’ll automatically just ship you that report.” And you get it and you’re like, [00:32:30] “What’s this? What, why does this one not have a price or delivery?” Oh, don’t know. ‘Cause it’s incomplete. Um, so you guys obviously you live on data. We’ve started having AI help us clean this data up, and I’m assuming some of the…

by the way, if I was using a system right now, a TMS, I would be very tempted to say, I have drop-down menus. You cannot leave a field blank on my system because they used to drive me nuts when I look and I go, [00:33:00] “Hey, there’s 16 shipments that cost $100. I don’t know where they began or where they ended,” right? All sorts of that nonsense. And I’m assuming you guys have figured out a way because your business is data in effect. How do you clean up all that data? ‘Cause you guys made this big leap with this the agentic time, th- the agentic era. How are you cleaning it up?

Jett McCandless: Yeah. You’re sharing real stories from, a real operational background and exposure. And your frustration and mine were, similar, which is where I thought the [00:33:30] opportunity was for the company. In 2022 2023, I actually started getting a little bit sad about the company.

Because I knew that the APIs were the most efficient way to communicate the information back and forth between the parties. But the reality is that you’re always dependent on the carrier’s innovation cycles in order to transmit that data. And the majority of the carriers and the majority of the world even in 2023, [00:34:00] had pretty good information, but would only take a handful of carriers or 10% of the carrier, of their capacity, maybe 7% in another mode, 13% in another mode.

So relatively small, high single digits low double digits, where the, the data wasn’t flowing well or completely. And the whole kind of thesis of this digitalization would start to, to fall apart and it pr- was putting a tremendous amount of strain [00:34:30] on us at project44. And then as agents started to become available that was one of the missing gaps.

Anyone that would argue that transmitting information back and forth for an agent for something that’s a B2B relationship like like we have in transportation, it’s happening many times a, a day, is better than an API would just be absolutely silly. And you can see the industry overcorrecting to that right now.

It’s a it’s a comical thing to happen. But the [00:35:00] two combined together, when you can take the APIs, you can take the agents to fill in the gaps, to correct the mistakes, or communicate with the carrier if the API is not available, is extremely powerful. And then when you can take these advanced machine learning and AI capabilities that are out over the last– They’re accelerating, ev-every, every minute over the last couple years.

What you start to be able to do is start to be able to automate more of [00:35:30] this. And you’re also able to start correcting and fixing a lot of the data better and better. And this unlocks an entirely this is a step function change. And the unlock is significant. It’s so much more powerful than where’s that truck or what’s the ETA for the truck?

Joe Lynch: Yeah. I always remember asking my team at a little logistics company, we were doing mostly less than truckloads. We had decent data, but every once in a while, you just look and there… If you’re doing thousands of shipments, it means there’s a dozen that don’t, they’re missing [00:36:00] information that how do you do KPIs for a weekly meeting if you’re missing? I know what happens. The lowest people in the organization have to make them up, have to figure out. They’re doing some best guessing, and of course, they’re doing the best guess for something that doesn’t get them in trouble. And that used to just absolutely crush me when I would look and go, “How do we have a dozen shipments that don’t have…” And it’s thousands of shipments are going through, so you look, I get it, it’s less [00:36:30] than 1%, but it’s a painful thing because if you can’t s- create some KPIs that tell you where things are going wrong because somebody corrected them, and again, they’re doing the best guess, it’s a horrible place to be because every business is trying to get better, and the way we get better is with that data.

And again, I can imagine virtually all of the people you’re working with say, “Yeah, we work with project44 or P44 or [00:37:00] LSP44 because they let us get better every day.”

Jett McCandless: Yep, that’s right. You’re exactly right. The data and the quality improvement has improved significantly over the last three years in the platform, which is I think why we see a massive increase in our NPS and our CCAT and a great improvement on our, what we call in software is NRR, which is more customers buying more and retention.

And that’s all– it all goes [00:37:30] back in our platform because it’s matured and advanced so much that the value that it adds is quite significant. And the platform has also hardened to where it’s easier and faster to set up and implement

Joe Lynch: Yeah. I was at a conference, and I won’t mention the name, but a very large logistics company said to me, everyone’s talking about AI, but we’re not.” And I said “You have better data than all they, than they do. You will be able to do more with it.” [00:38:00] And I said, “And you work with the largest brands.

I don’t want you to be the first. I don’t want you taking chances.” You work with the largest brands in the world. You’re gonna say, “Hey we implemented a whole bunch of AI agents, and sorry about that. We’re- you’re gonna have a bad month.”

Jett McCandless: Yeah, that’s the– That’s not an acceptable outcome

Joe Lynch: no. Anyway, Je- I wanna talk about the grand split here. So you’ve always had this project44, which again, is a, a [00:38:30] unicorn many times over. You have this fantastic company. What– When did you split these companies, and why did you split them? What did you see in the market that made you say, “My original vision,” which changed a few times over as, as we got better and as we grew across the planet.

What made you say, “Time to create two separate companies”?

Jett McCandless: Yes. And then just to remind the audience, we have project44, which is focused on the Global 2000 shippers, and we have LSP44, which is focused on [00:39:00] logistics service providers, which are 3PLs, brokers, and third-party warehouses. And, what it was is just sitting in the customer meetings and watching.

We had become so excellent at communicating with shippers and understanding their business needs and their value prop. But the context switching for those customer folks and even the, the product folks into then going into [00:39:30] a logistics service provider was significantly different. And I could, I would go to, say, Dallas and would see a shipper, and then would see an LSP, and then maybe a shipper with dinner.

And you could see the, the group really struggle with going back and

Joe Lynch: They wanted different things

Jett McCandless: They wanted different things. Culturally, the LSPs move much faster. They’re innovate. You could reach a deal at, to do a pilot at, at, at lunch. And when you’re dealing with, a Fortune 10 brand, you’re not making decisions that, [00:40:00] that, that fast.

And they’re– you have to be really mindful, to your point, it’s unacceptable to have, blow an entire quarter of a company’s market cap that’s, over a trillion dollars. That, that’s an unacceptable outcome. And you have to– The underlying platform technology is 99% the same, but how they engage it, how they configure it is slightly different, and how we message it and how we go to market with them is different.

And so I just wanted to be able to service in both [00:40:30] of those co-cohorts really effectively. And the best way to do that was to create two separate brands, have different forward-deployed engineers, have different sales reps, different solutions engineers, and different customer success folks, and even different implementation.

And by doing that, we can– we’re already seeing a, a huge int-intake in the LSP44, and we’re able to stay focused on the project44 side. And I think that’s gonna benefit the [00:41:00] shareholders the most. It’s certainly gonna benefit the sh- the customers the, the most

Joe Lynch: Y- yeah, Jett you’ve seen this. I’ve seen it on my podcast many times. It’s- there’s a whole bunch of freight brokerages that develop what they thought were very good TMSs, and they said, “We sell our TMS, and on top of that, we’re a brokerage.” And I was like, I always say, are are you gonna pick?”

And they’re like, “No, we don’t have to.” And I was like, “Someday you’re gonna have to pick. There’s a fork in the road here because you’re gonna get to a certain size, and somebody’s gonna say, ‘Why am I [00:41:30] using, why am I using my competitor’s TMS?'” And and we’ve seen those splits. And then I will also say, and again I’m not no hate here. I’m not gonna judge ’cause these are successful companies. There’s a lot of TMSs that have developed, and they say, “We work with brokers, we work with carriers, and we work with the shippers.” If you can make that work, good for you. But y- what’s first, right? If you say, “Mostly we work with shippers, but we have some, [00:42:00] some carriers, some 3PLs, brokers,” whatever you wanna call them, y- you’re gonna have a preference.

And what you’ve kinda done here, Jett, is say, “Uh, I don’t wanna pick which one of my kids I love most. I love them both, and I want them to have their own, their, have their own world here.”

Jett McCandless: Yeah that’s right. You make that comment about the TMSs that– and then also become brokerage. I unfortunately have invested in some of those companies, not when they were trying to service both, but they made a decision after the [00:42:30] investment, and you basically can immediately just go into your portfolio and write it down to zero Whether it happens in six months or six years it’s, a very likely outcome.

Yeah. S- fo-focus is really important. And for us, we have over a billion dollars invested into this, this platform that’s primarily, it’s 282,000 carriers in essentially every place in the world where there’s GDP. And for us to [00:43:00] be able to have that and have the world’s largest logistics data graph is extremely valuable to both cohorts, the shipper and the LSP.

But to your point, like waking up and obsessing over their use cases and their value props and understanding them culturally is quite a bit different. And so you take the best of the platform and present it to them, and then you bring the best go-to-market people and forward-deployed engineers that can help them configure that.

And I think [00:43:30] that’s the winning strategy

Joe Lynch: I love that. So long ago I saw a video, and the video t- told a story. I hope it’s true. And it was, um, Bill Gates’ dad was big into bridge, and he met Warren Buffett. Bill Gates’ dad was a very successful attorney, and by the way, I think he’s like 6’7″ too big man. And, He became good friends with Warren Buffett through bridge, I think, and then they — he introduced their son and Warren Buffett. And so they all had a dinner, and there was just some very [00:44:00] successful people at the dinner table, and Bill Gates Sr. said, “Everyone, I’ve given you a card. Please write out the one word that has your success.” And apparently, and I hope the story’s true, Warren Buffett and Bill Gates independently wrote “focus” on the card. And what you’ve done here with project44 is gonna have a focus team. They’re not worried. I’m sure they’re worried a little bit. They’re not worried about what’s happening over [00:44:30] there at the at the other company. I’m taking care of my customers, and I’m obsessed about it, focused on it. And I’m never gonna have to make a compromise where I say, “This is really good for shippers, but it kinda hurts And on the other side, the LSP guys say, “Yep this is a tool for us.” Matters.

Jett McCandless: That’s right. You’re exactly right

Joe Lynch: So Jett you’ve transitioned from what I’ll call barely the internet age right? To, To a time when we are so when [00:45:00] you started working, we didn’t have the mobile phones that we have now.

We had mobile phones, but they were flip phones. Obviously now a lot of people are doing business on their phones, and you’ve seen this AI grow up. What and again, you’ve just split your company, and I have a sense that some of this is related to AI. What do you think is gonna happen in the brokerage market and the carriers?

We’re still gonna have trucks. Brokers are information people. Gonna happen to this industry when AI [00:45:30] gets here? I know you don’t have the perfect crystal ball, but you got a pretty good one, I know.

Jett McCandless: I think what’ll happen to the brokers or LSPs out there is that we are in the middle of an event, and it’s always difficult when you’re in it to realize that you’re in it. But hi-history will show that this is a moment where step function change is happening, and it will create two cohorts.

There’ll be winners and losers. And we’ve seen this kinda happen over several [00:46:00] times over the last three, three decades. Companies that embrace computers and companies that embrace more advanced or progressive cultures. I think Coyote did a great job of bringing in, a step function change to how you set up the, the desk with buy buy, sell, if we wanna look at a specific example

Joe Lynch: Oh yeah, so we had, so at one time UB kind of carried a what do they call it? Birth to grave care-

I don’t know.

Jett McCandless: Yeah, couldn’t agree with

Joe Lynch: to grave, I’m sorry. Cradle to grave. They were the ones [00:46:30] who said, “Yeah, let’s create a, a whole team that takes care of this rather than one guy who might leave.”

Jett McCandless: Yeah, that’s right. It was a great model. We saw the LTL resellers say, “Let’s use the internet and no longer do rate quotes on these small $200 shipments where you have, 20 to $40 mil- dollars of margin. Let’s use, an automated way.” And that, that created, a winner and loser category there.

Now what we have is who can– [00:47:00] What we have with the AI and the APIs is that, one of the things, who can create the most efficiencies inside their operation, which is important, ’cause these LSPs tend to work on very small margins. And it’s not just displacing labor. That is obviously a, a component of it.

But it’s also things like who can source the best truck at the best price that can deliver on that specific use case. Whereas brokers, LSPs essentially live in a world of arbitrage. So [00:47:30] who has the tooling, the technology to be able to maximize that arbitrage? And you saw this, happen with hedge funds and other industries that it comes down to, to, to technology, and that’s what we’re gonna see here with the OS- with the LSPs.

And then also just sourcing through, through that process of lower cost and better service, it’s just making the customers happier. You had talked [00:48:00] earlier about domestic transportation just being a leg. I think what we’re starting to see is m- more and more these companies roll up this ground transportation plus ocean.

And we see this, these g- these players are primarily dominant in Europe. But I suspect over the next five years, we’re gonna start to see advancements here in the, in, in the US as people start to plug into the opportunities.

Joe Lynch: Yep. Jed, I’d love to hear your two cents on this. This is– I wrote an [00:48:30] article a long time ago, probably 2018, and it was talking about stockbrokers. So stockbrokers, by the way, if you watch football on Saturday or Sunday, you’d see 20 years ago just it was all stockbrokers. Merrill Lynch, EF Hutton, PaineWebber, they were all on there. Most people didn’t even use stockbrokers ’cause they were very expensive. And so you go, and I remember selling a stock for ten, ten thousand dollars, and the, the guy get [00:49:00] two hundred dollars for the sale, and they put me into Dell computers, so that tells you how long ago it was. And that was three hundred dollars.

And I remember going, “Yeah, I just transformed my huge ten thousand dollars into ninety-five hundred through transactions.” And there was guys at my country club, and they were Merrill Lynch guys, and I remember them complaining about age discrimination when E-Trade and all these people started selling ten dollar trades.

And Merrill Lynch had some-something like that. And they said, “Oh, they’re just pushing us out ’cause we’re old.” I was like, [00:49:30] “Pushing you out because no one wants to pay that much money for you to sit in your nice office with your secretary and doing bankers’ hours.” And used to be able to churn an account.

They would take an old person, and they would trade their account constantly. So I guess my point to my blather is there was not– there’s a lack of alignment. They could do very well while you did poorly. Now I kinda switch over to the freight brokerage. Freight brokerage, the same thing. We work– You work with us ’cause we have a [00:50:00] relationship. Will we still have a relationship if it’s a ten dollar transaction fee? So if someone can say, “Yeah, you pay me four hundred dollars in the middle,” or you get it for thirty dollars flat fee with somebody else. I think we’re gonna see a lot more transparency, and that transparency might lead to here’s what a, here’s what it costs to move a truck.

For… Do you think we’re gonna see some of that? Do you think we’re gonna see that margin compressed tig-tighter, and do you see us… [00:50:30] I’m not… The, the job’s not gonna go… Wrong way to say it. The work’s still gonna get done. I just don’t know that the jobs are gonna be the same.

Jett McCandless: Yeah. I think that we can– I think you have some great parallels there. At the end of the day, logistics service provider, LSP, that middle word does mean something, which is service. And this is a service industry, and they’re not just the middleman in between a commodity.

If they had

Joe Lynch: they’re saving you money in many cases[00:51:00]

Jett McCandless: Yeah. And there, there’s insurance and there’s things of who answers the phone at 2:00 AM when the strawberries the reefer unit turns. But I think on the more dry goods easier to move loads, like we should expect there to be a compression of gross margin. However, I think there can be an expansion of net margin through capital u-unfair advantages from access to capital and technology.

And there’d be a lot of jobs that are created. There’d be different types of [00:51:30] jobs. But the transactions will happen faster and more frequently with less less humans, somewhat to your analogy of the stockbroker. And there will likely be a consolidation of these logistics service providers

Joe Lynch: might have gone away, but what grew in its place is financial planners who say, “I will manage your money and I’m taking 1% a year. I, I’m aligned with you.” Every, every, every fee And by the way, I’m still m- the belief that I want to hire a professional who knows how- [00:52:00] He’s a professional buyer.

He knows how to buy trucks way better than my team does. We make cars or we make food. We trust you to do the job. We trust you to have the right insurances, the right technology, which is LSP44, to do the to do the job for me. I don’t wanna go into that business. We see this also with private fleets, often selling those private fleets off to a Ruan or a Schneider or a Ryder because why are we in the trucking business? So I think, I don’t think it’s going away, [00:52:30] that middle, but I think the way they get paid might change. And again, I’m all about alignment. You mentioned the Lehto brothers. I was talking to one of them on the podcast, and they talked about at Global Trans, in, where somebody got $1,000 on a trade, and they ran- go over and they ring a bell. And he says, “And then people are doing a victory dance.” And I was like what happens if somebody’s walking through with a customer?” He’d say, “Hey, please explain why that guy is dancing with his buddies over there.” “Oh, ’cause he made $1,000 for [00:53:00] getting somebody a truck.”

Jett McCandless: Yeah,

Joe Lynch: “Whoa, is that what I’m gonna have?” So the, the world changed

Jett McCandless: It did change. It’ll continue to change. And, this is– this will be– it’s the way of man and mankind. And there will be winners and there will be losers, but it’s pretty clear what needs to be done here. And I agree with your point that that Armstrong would have better data on this, but I suspect that LSPs are continuing to take market share pretty consistently for a long [00:53:30] time

Joe Lynch: Y-yes

Jett McCandless: goes to your point about focus, if you manufacture auto, you wanna focus on that, but you also want technology that’s monitoring your service providers, and you wanna make sure you’re getting the best service

Joe Lynch: I would also say that in– I was an automotive guy for 20-plus years, and when I came to logistics, I was at a non-asset-based 3PL, mostly less than truckload. And I remember when my people would call or I would call a shipper, they’d say, “Oh, do you have [00:54:00] trucks?” “No.” Click. That’s it. That, that world is gone now.

I think there’s a recognition that the very best companies, they don’t necessarily need trucks. And by the way, even if you have trucks, that doesn’t mean you have nationwide coverage. I can trust if I call a big LSP that they are going to have nationwide coverage, and they’re gonna have– they’re gonna get me a price and a service that I cannot go get myself.

So I’m all for it. Jet, I’ve gone way over my time with [00:54:30] you already, but one last thing. All these tech companies. So I was just at the mergers, lo-Logistin mergers and acquisition conference last week in Chicago at Naperville. By the way, I didn’t know how nice Naperville was. Holy moly. People were talking about with AI, will I need software?”

And I was like– And then I heard a few shippers say, “We are– we have no desire to get, start into the software business or under the AI business.” So there’s a lot of kind of [00:55:00] bombastic talk about, oh AI will replace all the software out there. Am I right to say that we’ll use AI, but it’ll be somebody will be managing that AI on our behalf?

And I’m thinking that’s LSP44 and project44.

Jett McCandless: Yeah, AI is a really big word. I think what we’ve seen is the market stock market overreacted to AI and unfairly punished the software providers last year and this year. When you look at just the the [00:55:30] fundamental financials of those businesses, they– many of them perform strong and continue to be strong.

There are many software businesses that aren’t complicated or don’t– aren’t mission-critical that can be vic coded or coded with AI relatively quickly, and those businesses are in big trouble. But if you really think about, like for our industry, what you need is you need a lot of data. And for us, I think that’s a phenomenal position to be in because we are the world’s largest logistics data graph.

And to your [00:56:00] point, not only is it the largest, but it’s also the most accurate. And so that is the foundation that this AI can work off of and do really amazing things. So in our case– but we also have AI in the in, in the product. We’re not building frontier models. We don’t need to. What we need to d-do is deliver value to our customers.

And so I’m optimistic about companies that take that approach, and I’m also optimistic about some of these AI companies, whether they’re on the infrastructure, on the frontier model. The [00:56:30] frontier models could see some, some big headwinds, or I guess we’re see here in the near future. But there could be winners in both categories and there can, and there will be losers in both categories

Joe Lynch: Yeah. It’s an interesting time. And, I’m, I guess we’ve seen some of these times before in when the, the first dot-com bust, there was these things that I remember seemed outla- outlandish, and in retrospect it’s outlandish, but at the time it seemed like it’s this is really the, this is really real. We didn’t know what [00:57:00] we didn’t know. And I was at this conference, and I was talking about when I got the internet, it was AOL, and I lived in AOL’s little corner of the internet, and we called that the internet. And we didn’t know that eventually there’ll be search engines and that the internet is way bigger than AOL. To some extent, I feel like that’s where we’re at in the AI world, where we’re in our little small piece of it. We’re all using it to do minor activities when major activities can be done. When I say we, I don’t mean you guys. I know you guys are using it in a [00:57:30] bigger way than that. But uh, what we’re seeing is just the, the infancy of all this, and who knows where it goes. Anyway, let me wrap this bad boy up, and then I want your final thoughts on the topic. So I’m talking to my friend, Jett McCandless. We’re talking about the P44 and the LSP44 story. And so P44 is you guys have split. So project44 is all for the shippers. LSP44 is all for the logistic service [00:58:00] providers. And this allows you guys to focus, to bring your very best to both of these companies. And it reflects kind of the growth of the company from what it was, uh, in the beginning, which we all just called project44 a visibility tool. And I think a lot of people even now would say, “Oh, project44 is visibility.” So much more than that. And really, Jett said it earlier on, it never was about visibility. Visibility is something it can do very well because it connects. And as [00:58:30] soon as you can connect all the systems, you can start to have really good visibility. And by the way, visibility now feels practically perfect compared to what it was a decade ago.

I mean,

Jett McCandless: It’s a lot better.

It’s incredible

Joe Lynch: Jett, I gotta tell you, I, I always say the number one question in our business is, “Where’s my stuff?” The number two business, the number n- number two question in our business is always, “Where’s my money?” I always feel like

that- That’s That’s what you go after next, Jett. We [00:59:00] talked about this whole, whole tr- like timeline from 2014 till today and all the changes you guys seen and why you guys decided to split into two companies, again, to focus to take care of both your customer segments. Anyway, I’ll make sure I put a link to your LinkedIn profile, a link to your website, any other links you and your go-to-market team give me, I’ll put those in the show notes. Final thoughts on the topic, Jett?

Jett McCandless: I think we’re– we’ve gotta be… You and I have been around the industry for a long time, and we could share a lot [00:59:30] of exciting stories. And I think we’re at the eve of just so many ideas and concepts we’ve been tossing around the industry for decades intersecting at once. You have data connectivity, you have predictive and prescriptive analytics automation that can happen now.

You have the concepts across large brands willing to share data with one another in order to, improve their supply chains or the or the world. And you have [01:00:00] a higher level of talent in the industry than that’s ever been possible. And, there’s a good amount of capital, both from profit and from institutional investors that are speculative.

And it– the combination of all this together, I think the next five to 10 years will be the most exciting, and it’ll belong to people that collaborate and that make brave, bold moves and, people like you that are stewards of that. So I appreciate what you do, and I love the sign behind you.

I don’t know that any, any truer thing could be [01:00:30] said.

Joe Lynch: It’s the ul- the ultimate luxury is time spent with friends and family. You were smart to point out the other day, though, depends which friends and family.

Jett McCandless: That’s true

Joe Lynch: Anyway what conference will we see you and the fine folks from LSP44 and project44 at? I see you guys at every conference

Jett McCandless: Yes. We we try to go out there and see the customers. I believe the next conference we’re going to [01:01:00] is F3 with FreightWaves in Chattanooga, and I think Craig and I will have a fireside chat.

Joe Lynch: Oh, that’ll be a good one

Jett McCandless: Yeah should be great

Joe Lynch: And you guys are also going Armstrongs & Associates?

Jett McCandless: Yes, we’ll be attending that which is exciting to hear the content that gets presented from that

Joe Lynch: Oh, but by the way, before I forget our friend John Fitzgerald, he’s the one who connected me with you this time, so thank you, John, for making this happen. He is one of your I don’t know, one of… head of sales or whatever he does [01:01:30] over there.

Jett McCandless: He’s one of the best. He’s ahead of everything, so he’s amazing

Joe Lynch: And he’s an Irishman. I went to Ireland. When I came home he had posted something about being of Irish descent parents from Ireland. I was like, “Oh, okay. Sounds right, John Fitzgerald.” Anyway, thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate

Jett McCandless: Yeah. Thanks for having me on the show

Joe Lynch: And thank all of you for listening to my show.

Your support’s very much appreciated. Until next time, onward and upward.